What can we do about Terrorism?

[Daremo]

This is a tough one. Terrorists are fanatics, totally dedicated to a cause. It doesn't matter how radical the cause or how far-fetched the beliefs required, a true fanatic will rationalize and justify everything. This means they are capable of any action for the cause; murdering infants, bombing hospitals and schools, suicide attacks, spreading bio-agents, absolutely ANYTHING.

They can hide anywhere. We ran into this in VietNam, although not to this extent. They infiltrate, they recruit locally and they could be anybody, anywhere. But the point is that they do not always hit military or political targets. They will harm innocents in order to get their way. This, in my opinion, sets many of those who may be sympathetic to their cause, against them.

But how are we to deal with this? A backlash against those of the Islamic faith is wrong, there are many in that religion who call for an end to violence. Even though increased scrutiny against those of Middle-Eastern ancestry is hard to swallow, isn't that really a "description of the suspect"? We are not being bombed by fat white guys from Iowa, we are not being bombed by soccer hooligans, we are not being bombed by Chinese, Japanese or East Indians. We are being bombed by those of Arabic descent. Sad to say this does cause racial profiling. On the flip side, if I was in a part of town notorious for robberies by Latino gangs, I would not be looking to protect myself from an elderly black lady. I would be looking out for young Latino men wearing gang colors. A description of the suspect.

Are we to search out all suspected terrorists and kill them? Won't this turn the tide of public opinion against us? Do we care? If they're all dead, they can't harm us. Do we just kill the leaders? Does this make them martyrs in the eyes of young fanatics and swell their ranks? Do we just imprison them? Wouldn't they then be able to continue to run their terror organizations while in jail?

We CANNOT allow the continued killing of innocents by these animals. We CANNOT give in to their demands without causing more demands to be issued until the terrorists are in control. I don't know about you, but I enjoy looking at a scantily clad member of the opposite sex and knocking back a few pints. Under the terrorist regime, this is strictly not allowed.

If we can't give in and we can't give up -- what can we do? We have people of many different backgrounds and cultures here. Everything from U.S. Marines to (dare I say it?) Radical Ed. What can we, as citizens of the world, do to stop this plague of violence? Gun control is not an option, terrorists have guns and worse. Even the British police are now arming themselves more than in the past. All places are feeling the spread of this cancer, even the quiet, green hills of Ireland and the cornfields of Iowa. What do we demand of our governments? What can they realistically do? Won't the media castrate them and magnify every mistake any law-enforcement officer makes and turn public opinion against the 'good-guys'. This type of media coverage may make good ratings, but it is almost treasonous in providing aid and comfort to the enemy.

What do we do, what DO we DO?

[SyntaxHeir]

As per usual, I'll add a heavy bit of distrust for the government and its intentions.

I think a lot of this has to do with the adage "There's no money in the cure." I think terrorism is a necessary catalyst for those who would seek to keep us afraid and convince us "they know what's best" and they're acting "in our best interest."

I find it difficult to believe we can find Saddam Hussein hiding in a hole in the middle of a dessert but we can't do the same with Bin Laden. Is he just a better hole hider? Maybe he knows the choicest spots and Saddam just wasn't privy to Al-Qaeda, hole-hiding secrets.

That doesn't answer your question, but in order to explore the topic completely we have to answer a few other questions.

What is their motivation? Are they just nutjobs that want to rule the world like Stalin and Hitler? Do they have a purpose outside "defending [X] belief from the infidels" and getting their buddies released from prison?

I agree we cannot give into them, as that would just encourage them to blow up more stuff, as it would appear to get them their way.

I think it starts with finding the training centers. These people aren't be trained in places we can't find. Maybe they're being hidden under the guise of temples or other shrines but the drug industry has tried hiding their manufacturing process with what would seem lesser success than the terrorists. Also the terrorists don't enjoy the same benefit of risk vs. reward as the drug cartels. They don't have a "demand" or a "market" that makes their activity enticing or rewarding. The world is growing more and more intolerant toward any sort of activity that would appear to be remotely unsafe to the public. [As well it should]

With increased pressure from the global community these terrorist cells will start running out of places to hide. I think we need to put increased pressure on the areas that are suspect to harbor terrorists.

As big as I am on privacy and liberty, I would not oppose someone coming into my house looking for terrorists if they had *probable cause* to believe I may be offering sanctuary to terrorists. As long as I got to accompany them on their search and they didn't tear my stuff up, I'd be happy to have them off my back.

It has to be very difficult logistically to train people to be terrorists, privately and secretly. I find it hard to believe we are having only marginal success rooting these people out.

I question the motivation of the government to truly "seek out and eliminate" terror. I believe, as sick as it may sound, there is too much money and power to be gained by keeping a nation in fear. Ever since the cold war the US government has struggled to find a "bad guy" to point toward and say, "LOOK!! This is why we need new jet fighters and more money!! See look! Bad guys!!!"

If we got rid of them all people might start looking toward the government as the "oppressive" force that needs dismantling and we can't have that now can we?

[Daremo]

Perhaps they're training in nations 'friendly' to their cause. Perhaps under the guise of normal police or military training for that nation. Do we then invade more nations? Do we clandistinely blow up training centers in sovereign nations?

If we dismantle the government as oppressive, then who protects us from the bad guys during this transition period? How do we have assurances that the devil we don't know is better than the devil we do know? Who gets to select the new government? Who gets to write these new laws repealing or fixing the old ones? Are they really better? For whom? Don't we have procedures in place to do these things already? Are you advocating a radical change with no lawful way to implement it? Has the revolution started and I just missed it? Whose side am I on?

Inquiring minds want to know?

[Kitz E Kat]

Aside from the Badar Meinhoff Gang, a bunch of nut's with little support , i can't think of any terrorist group that was "defeated" ?

The terror end's with negotiation, and giving into at least some of the demand's.

With these "radical muslims" we don't have a list of "demand's" , we don't really know what they want, exactly..

Nor are they open to negotiation, we are filthy pigs, they have no respect, nothing in common, or any desire to be a part of our society.

I suspect their aim is to convert or kill all non "radical muslims" , so really there ain't much to negotiate about, is there!

That just leave's the kill them before they kill you option, easier said than done....

Syntax , Ireland is a very small country, the IRA have managed to have some quite sophistacated training camps , undiscoverd for years.
They to this day , still have many arm's dumps the location of which is still secret, add safe house's and support within a section of the community and you got one very hard to defeat group.
The UK government realised long ago that they would have to negotiate with the IRA , they could never beat them.
The UK government with the help of the Irish government put everything they had at trying to defeat the IRA and failed.

How do we defeat the "radical muslim's" with a greater base, more money, and spread out over most country's in the world ?

Dunno , you tell me :-(

[SyntaxHeir]

Perhaps they're training in nations 'friendly' to their cause. Perhaps under the guise of normal police or military training for that nation. Do we then invade more nations? Do we clandistinely blow up training centers in sovereign nations?

We've done it before, not that I advocate this kind of thing, but look at all the operations in South America during the late 70s and 80s.


If we dismantle the government as oppressive, then who protects us from the bad guys during this transition period? How do we have assurances that the devil we don't know is better than the devil we do know? Who gets to select the new government? Who gets to write these new laws repealing or fixing the old ones? Are they really better? For whom? Don't we have procedures in place to do these things already? Are you advocating a radical change with no lawful way to implement it? Has the revolution started and I just missed it? Whose side am I on?

Inquiring minds want to know?

Are you talking about our government or theirs? If ours, then my sugguestion is a simple one. "Dismantling" would only return the goverment to its Constitutional limits and keep it there. Turn a vast majority of the power over to the states and tell the feds to sit down and shut up.

Dismantling other governments? I dunno, it never seems to work out when goverments are overthrown, well except maybe Germany. But Cuba and Russia seem to be no better off than they were. We'll have to wait and see with Iraq.

[Kitz E Kat]

I somehow doubt that a regime change in say, the US would make a blind bit of difference to "radical muslims", unless of course it was a "radical muslim" government.

And yes , most time's the people are worse off after a regime change.

[SyntaxHeir]

Syntax , Ireland is a very small country, the IRA have managed to have some quite sophistacated training camps , undiscoverd for years.
They to this day , still have many arm's dumps the location of which is still secret, add safe house's and support within a section of the community and you got one very hard to defeat group.
The UK government realised long ago that they would have to negotiate with the IRA , they could never beat them.
The UK government with the help of the Irish government put everything they had at trying to defeat the IRA and failed.

How do we defeat the "radical muslim's" with a greater base, more money, and spread out over most country's in the world ?

Dunno , you tell me :-(

I think the NRA is a slightly different situation. As odd as it may seem they have some people convinced what they're doing is necessary and people support them in the way of money and political refuge. I'm not very clear on the connection between the IRA and Sinn Fein but from what I've read Sinn Fein is the "Olive Oil business" to the IRA's "Family Business".

When it comes to removing the IRA you have citizens on both sides of the argument. Some Irish people *want* the English in the North of Ireland and don't want to be separated from the U.K. Some folks agree with the ideals of the IRA but don't [openly] support their methods. Further still there are people who are complacent on the whole thing and just want the killing to stop. I would suggest there were fewer Hussein supporters in Iraq than there are IRA sympathizers in the North of Ireland. Again, that's only speculation on my part, I've never been to Belfast or Bagdad.

Lastly, I think the IRA is more similar to our KKK than Al-Qaeda. We still have Klan members in the US, not because we *can't* get rid of them, I think it's mostly because we haven't put forth sufficient resources into doing so.

[Kitz E Kat]

The Brit's threw everything and the kitchen sink at the IRA, did'nt work!

I would consider the IRA a mickey mouse setup compared to Al quieda ( spelling dodgy?) , they have more money and more members than the IRA would ever hope to have.

They have many "passive" supportors willing to help, they have everything the IRA had and the rest.

The IRA had a dispute over land as it's goal, these fucker's have "god" on their side, at least their god, a very powerfull weapon.

The IRA never had "sucide" bombers, another powerfull weapon.

[SyntaxHeir]

Didn't Britain at one point actually consider pulling out entirely and there were protests from the citizens in the north to keep them there?

[Kitz E Kat]

Britian would love to pull out of the North of Ireland, it's a huge can of worms that really no one in thier right mind would want to have.
In terms of money it's a black hole , with no tangible reward.

Truth is many people ( including me) don't want to have nothing to do with the North of Ireland.
You got the "republican's", a shower of murdering bastards, on the other hand you got the "unionist's" a , eh, shower of murdering bastards !
Two side's that rather enjoy hating each other , thing's are changing , but so slowly it's painfull.

Now , look at Iraq you have so many "side's" it's not funny, it's at time's like this i a'm rather glad i a'm just a humble citizen, and not trying to figure out how to "fix" Iraq, it ain't fixable !

[relik]

Iraq is definantly fixable. With time, money, and more troop loss, it'll be acomplished. Do we have a problem with Bahrain? The United Arab Emirates? Egypt? Negative.

The truth of the matter is, there can be balance between Arab countries and the U.S. Regardless if they believe in "Westernization" or not. They do not have to have the same standards, nor the same burger kings on every corner as we do. Its their choice. Its all right there, their choice. Making a government that is "their choice" is a lot harder then you think.

Take into consideration whos going to pay for the guy that sucks the crap out of the porta johns, or the government official who runs the tax center, or the guy that is installing electricty.

Setting up a government in a country that has never had an opportunity for freedom is completely insane.

I want to take your quote on "They are worse off then before the invasion". That is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard. You take your views and perspectives from a bias media that would rather glory the terrorists then what we are actually doing there.

I was there during Operation Enduring Freedom when we went into Afghanistan. Taking Khandihar was a bitch!

When we went into the country, for the most part, it was fairly decent, pretty mountain views, but poverty was the norm. People living in huts and herding sheep with no opportunity for a different life. Now thats not necessarily bad. If they want to live their lives like that, then fine, but should they have to live in an oppressed country that is run by people who bomb innocent victims? No.

Lets take Iraq for example. I was the 7th HMMV into Iraq (Minus the brits, they beat us), being on a MEU you get the perks of being in the front lines with the grunts. Strolling into the first "town" there were sand houses, people with no running water, electricity, completely horrid. The kids were starving, no food. They were skinnier then a strand of hair on my head.

Moving on to the next city, same thing... Moving into Baghdad, where we took the Airport, Sadaams Baath party regime party resort was fenced in with massive brick walls with barbed wire. Right on the other end. Huts.

Moving inside, swimming pools, mansions, running water, electricity, full time cooks and sex slave quarters. Gold embroidered paintings with lined stairwells of marble.

Moving on into Sadaams main presidential grounds. 20-30 palaces for his house guests that decided to stay there, surrounded by massive lakes for fishing.

Sadaams palace, the size of 500 normal houses. Walking inside, gold everything lined with full air conditioning, numerous expensive cars, and the list goes on.

This is one of Sadaams 50+ palaces he had spread over Iraq. I didn't get a chance to see the one in Babyl, I heard it blew this one away. Again, moving through his massive stone walls surrounded by barbed wire, armed guard look out towers and access check points there was a small town right outside.

In this town, no running water, no electricity, people starving full of hunger. Moving into Baghdad, there were either 2000 BMW's or a 1960 Taxi that could barely drive. Either you were with Sadaams Baath party or you were poor. What did these people do? Send a RPG our way? Nope. They went into their homes, gathered what food and tea they had and offered it to us. Crying about how happy they were that they can finally live in freedom. Kids coming next to us wanting to be a Marine. I was doing a patrol out in Baghdad shortly afterwards in a "Red" Zone. Which means its bad. We raided a suspected torture chamber that was right next to a school playground. It was a torture chamber believe me. Blood everywhere, human remains, you name it. As we were exiting this building. A mother came up to me and hugged me crying. I was confused, but our translator began talking with her. She was dragged and raped by a high baath party official while her husband sat there and watched. Afterwards they beat her husband to death as she watched with a small mallot.

I left about 4 months after Baghdad "Fell". I returned a year and a half later. Strolling through Baghdad, the town outside of Baghdad, now completely redone. New schools being erected, flowing water and electricity. I noticed something different this time, kids would cheer and look at us with smiles, but they wern't begging for food. Odd. Going through Baghdad, normal day life. Buildings being rebuilt, schools being erected.

Moving through Ar Ramadi and Fallujah, the worst of the worst. Mostly all Sunni Muslims. Sunnis if you aren't familar on history of Iraq were the main supporters of the Sadaam Era. New schools being built, couple weeks later being blown up. Electricity being ran to all the houses. I'm going to give a small history lesson here. Fallujah was considered the "Slums" of Iraq. Sadaam wouldn't touch that city. It was off-limits.

Lets take Abu Al Zarqawi for example. A drunk, failed out of High School, and became a Muslim Extremist when God was talking to him when he was being raped in prison.

What gets me with the general populace is, you don't have to agree with this war, you don't have to like bush, hell you don't have to like america, I could honestly care less. But when people base their beliefs on the negative news being dealt in Iraq and not what has been acomplished, it makes me sick. Your views and your opinions based upon speculation and what you percieve to be reality is propagada to the terrorists. You are feeding them, making them stronger. Not better since we went in? Give me a break.

Fix terrorism? It'll never go away completely, but we are killing massive amounts everyday, they will fade. The people doing the bombings are people getting payed 100 dollars to set up and IED. Theres your terrorists. Uneducated (most of them), poor, and dumb. Give it 3 years, we will prove you wrong.

ReL

[SyntaxHeir]

Outstanding post ReL. I bet a lot of people didn't have any idea about the things you outlined. Myself included.

Thanks for that.

[relik]

Thanks Syntax, as usual I go a little overboard on words, but I like to spice things up a bit.

I honestly have no problem with people against war, because it is the most horrible thing that can happen in this world. Nor am I against anyone claiming bush is in this for the oil etc. etc. the list goes on. The only concern I see from actually being there is what is actually being televised. You guys see 5 women bombed by U.S Forces report from Al-Jazeera. I see first hand 5 men with AK-47's bombed.

You see starving people, I see women and men being educated, not Sadaam Hussein is a desendant of a star God. I see electricity and running water to houses that never had it before.

Its bad now. Believe me, its bad. Its gotten better. It will continue to get better. Insurgencies only last a certain amount of time. Even if we were to kill Zarqawi tommorow it would still go on.

Let me tell you the mind of an Iraqi Terrorist.

1. They believe we can read their minds with Satellites, that is the reason we found them, because their friend would not do such a thing.
2. They believe we are crusaders wiping Islam off of the face of the earth.
3. They believe that if their brother, who is an insurgent dies, they have to avenge his death.
4. They get payed. They are poor.


These are small examples of what they actually believe. Think I'm lying? I can give you numerous people who heard the exact same thing I did first hand. Its ridiculous. They are un-educated, and they think we are nuking the Islam religion.

Trust me, we aren't fighting people because we invaded. We are fighting people because they believe its a holy war.

Give it 3 years. I hope someone reads this post 3 years from now and is like...Wow. I would have never guessed, a trip to Baghdad for a vacation (maybe not in 3 years :P but it will be possible).

ReL

[Kitz E Kat]

Nice post Relik :-)
Just one or two things!
Iraq is definantly fixable. With time, money, and more troop loss, it'll be acomplished.
I'm not sure , how many more of your fellow troops are you prepared to loose?, i gotta be honest that statement shocks me to an extent.
Are "troops" that expendible? it's just a statistic? never mind, there ya go,shit happens, it's just "troop loss" ?

Why do you feel such an affinity to Iraq that you would be happy to have "more troop loss", for , unless i entirely misread your statement , you are happy to have "troop loss" in the name of Iraq.

Don't get me wrong here dude, but really do you or any of your troop's give a fuck about Iraq? Since when are you and your troops so concerned about Iraq that you are prepared to "loose more troops" , me if i was there i would not want to "loose one troop" never mind "more" troops.

What's the great sudden affinity with Iraq , that we should be prepared to die in the name of Iraq?

I ain't makin a statement, i am just at a loss that you should think that "troops" are expendible in a far off country that never did you no favours.

Troop's are people, your saying "let's fuck more US citizens at Iraq, till it's all good",Iraq is politics, one day it will all be forgot about, the politician's will still have nice suits, the wife's of the "troop loss" will have social welfare, well that's just fuckin great.


Tis a just and holy war , fuck more troops at it , their expendible !

Stay safe dude, i respect ya, but your boss's don't !

[duder]

What's the great sudden affinity with Iraq , that we should be prepared to die in the name of Iraq?

i think the ultimate goal is to make them (3vil 1R4Q1 d00dZ) die for their country.. not the other way around.. usually works better for us that way ;)
sorry, i just had to put that in there... now on to more important matters.

members of the armed forces willingly joined knowing that they might be put in harms way... i personally don't know of anybody that joined the military because they felt some, as you put it, great sudden affinity with Iraq... they (most, not all) joined because of thier great affinity with the United States of America. they (most, not all) joined because of their great affinity with their fellow brothers (we know how i feel about *sisters* in the military) in arms. we don't do it for GW, we don't do it for Donald Rumsfeld, we don't do it for oil, we don't do it for money. we do it because we feel a need to back up our countrys voice (however stupid the accent may sound sometimes). we do it, because we believe that the US is an awesome nation (however shitty some of the foreign policies may be) and underneath all that may be wrong with the US, one day, with alot of work, it may be returned to the respected (not feared) nation we once were.

we most certainly DID NOT do it for the nookie... i damn hate that band...


/me gets off his high horse

peace,

duder

[Arlene]

Hmmm, I have a lot to say here but, hmmm. Well i used to 'date' a cop who, after 9/11, joined the army to help fight terrorism. jody became an army cop. After he joined he became a real nut job, not so much a mans man (he was one before) but his boss saw in him the ultimate law enforcer because he was 6.7 and 300 plus pounds of muscle. After a few short months it was as though he joined a cult, you could hold no other conversation with him but how to fight the evil ones. He still talks and acts like this. Around that same time a fellow prof of mine also joined the army for the same reasons and had the same result, he was briliant prof, briliant in the classroom and then became a nut job. See the concern here, the idea that these men and women are joining as a means to show their 'physical' superiority?

I feel that their has to be a better way of dealing this this issue other than making the army, war a great and glorious thing, like that old roman saying, it is great and glorious to die for ones country, and we all know how that story ended for them. I mean, how many fat cats have thier kids enlisted as compared to the poor, I question this more so with the states and am left to wonder if they did not manufacture this whole mess in order to hide their growing dept and failier to feed its people, thus forcing the poor, the working class poor and other, to join the army in order to get an education, to get money to feed their families and to get a 'reputation'. Hmm, kinda sounds like that whole Veitnam mess ain't it...I know that there was terrorism before that whole 9/11 thing, but I feel that the states monololized it and marketed it to their benifit. I feel that the whole middle east thing is for oil and a race to beat china and kill the newly signed chinese contracts with the middle east prior to 9/11. This information is even verified by the UN. As for terrorism now, who knows. I feel that violence is NOT the awnser on the part of the industrial countries as they have this horrid tendancy to blow up children/women/old. Not to say that the 'terrorists' have not recently started to do the same, but an eye for an eye went out with ages ago and has a proven track record of not working. Why not work together for better talks and actually ask the terrorists what they want for real and what ever happened to treaty negotiations?
My two cents,
a

[relik]

Woa woa woa, thats just an isolated incident, thats like saying everyone in the military likes slapping their wives around and raping little children.

Sorry to hear your boyfriend got whacko, sometimes going through training like that will do that to you. Most of us are pretty normally actually, well hehe as much as you can be hanging around 100 percent guys for 8 months :P

As for Kitz's comment. Loosing 1 person is horrible man, extremely horrible. When I think about the friends I lost I get down and upset. I do however look at it this way. Vietnam we lost buttloads of people, WWII and WWI we lost butt loads of people, and this war doesn't even compare to 1 day in any of those wars compared to losses. The truth of the matter is regardless of how great our technology, intelligence, and infantry is, the best tactic (created so far) is guerilla warfare. If you blend in with the civilian populace the only way we are going to kill everyone of the bad guys is if we kill all of the civilian populace. Thats why its going so wrong right now. We can't distinguish.


Do the troops care about the war in Iraq? Hell yea we do, its our friends over there dying, its our brothers that are over there dying. Its a worthy cause though. This isn't some bullshit brainwashing tactic they use on us, when you are actually there first hand your perspective on life changes dramatically. I'm not sure if I posted this previously, but when I first got back to the U.S we landed in Bangar Maine. I walked into the Bathroom and almost started to cry because of how nice the bathrooms were. Sound crazy? Marble tiles, things that flush, water at your disposal. It was amazing to me. The thing is, those people over there do not have the benefit of having a better life, they have no chance because of their leaders. We can change that, we can give a feeling of accomplishment and freedom to people who damn right should have it. We are slaves of noone, we are our own bosses, we own our lives, someone else doesn't. If we can give that to a COUNTRY that is worth loosing my friends, that is worth loosing my life. I was ready to give my life.

As for Arlene, referring to joining the service and wanting to defend you country and wanting to do everything you want for it so that people like you can complain on doing things the peaceful way isn't a nutjob. Its patriotism. We aren't brainwashed, we learn what other people have done for us in the past, and what we may have to do for the future and it gives us more love for life then you could ever imagine. I'm sorry things didn't work out between you and your boyfriend, but that was probably not only his fault.

I don't know about you Arlene, but if your parents had been in the towers when the planes hit, I bet you would want revenge too. I bet if your brother or your sister or your dad or your dog was in the trains when it got bombed in London you would want revenge too. Think about it in that perspective, when a U.S citizen dies because of terrorists, for the military its like loosing a brother or a sister or a dad, because it is our job to protect you nut jobs. Thats why we would give anything to deter these wackos from bombing us and to restore a freedom to people that have never experienced it.

On the last note, my best friend 2 weeks ago got hit by an IED, lost both legs and might loose his arm, i think hes got some crazy infection or something and if it reaches a certain point they need to cut it off. Anyways, I was talking to him over the phone and the question I asked him was, would you do it all over again knowing what you know now? He said Hell yes, he only wished he could have helped more people before the IED went off. He was with the Seabees installing electricity to a school when he was leaving to head back to base, right outside is where the IED hit and killed 2 of his HMMV members and wounded him.

The point I'm making with this is, go to a military hosptial where all there is is pain suffering death, ask any of the doctors how the moral of the troops are. They will tell you they would do it all over again regardless of what happened. This is why we are the best military in the world, we believe in our country and what it stands for. When we see people burning U.S Flags and chanting anti-war sentiments and claiming the army is brainwashing our young kids, we see freedom. If you would have done that in Iraq they would have tortured you until you could barely breeth, heal you and do it all over again.

My suggestion to any of you that are completely unhappy with how things are going, vote next election and make a difference or move to Switzerland.

ReL

[Arlene]

Hay, I respect where you are coming from and, just so you know, my best friend was in the towers when they colapsed. He missed the tour the day before and wanted to get some pics for us before he had to catch his flight for his first real teaching gig in Russia. However, his family still did not want to see other children and people die because of what happened to him.

As a Jew, Russian (doukhobor) and German person, I am very aware of the military, from both ends. In germany we were drug into the streets and shot, all of us, any age. My great grandfather protested openky againt hitler and had a horseshoe up his ass when they went to shoot him. He had to dig his own grave, but one of the guys who was to kill him knew him from when he worked in the hospital. He said if I turn my back to light a smoke and you are escape then...my g-grandfather escaped and lived underground for years, leaving my g-grandmother with 14 kids and one hell of an extended family. The natzi's would come into her house at night to take her family away. It is manditory where my family comes from to join the army! As for the old pseudo-B/F and friend, both of them were the a typical followers, the Boy was a recovering drunk and had the same zeel directed to the army as he had for AA. My uncle (married into the family) and bestfriend was a Babylonian in Yougoslavia, he was forced to join the army, like it or not he was very good at his job and a sniper (yet he could not kill a deer if his life depended on it). He always made very aware of what he did when he came to canada and to us, he always said he was and should be ashamed for what he did as it was against Gods wishes (he was muslim), God did not want people to act like this or to take another humans life, that there are always better ways but countries are to scared and selfish to try these ways. end of the day we are not god and do not have the right to decide when someone else lives or dies. He went back to that country to get his brother out of jail, his own army wanted him to rejoin because of what he was before he left them. He said no and was shot, by his own. I would like to point out that he was at this point a canadian citizen, hmm not saying much for my country...

As for blending into the crowds, g-warfare, hon' it didn't work in veitnam and what happens when you come across someone who talks like me but cannot even kill the damn spider with eggs living under my tomatoes? One could read or hear my speech and assume I am attached to a group, then as my family before me get drug out and shot. hell, I look the part and yet I am not. End of the day all I can say is that those in the army have friends, family, brothers and sisters here too that need them. need them alive, I KNOW it is not fun looking at a photo of someone you know went to this war or even the ones before and have died, it is not fun looking at that photo and you qestion what was wrong with you, your family, that they chose something like a country over their love of you, over seeing you grow up, over seeing you get in troubles, seeing you graduate, off to this and that. it is great that people join the army and feel that need, join the church, join what ever, but what about what you leave behind. the pride of seeing your loved one in their uniform is short lived when they end up dead and you know they chose that death.

I do accept that the army is a way out for some people, but just like everything else in life, one needs to weigh out how their choice, will affect those they love, like it or not this is not just our life, our actions will affect those around us and there needs to be better preperation for those joining the army. What do we do with those war survivors? The ones who cannot deal?

As for this war, there has to be a better way, if violence has not worked before then it will not work now, we are dealing with hot blooded cultures and people who know how to hold a grudge when one of their own dies, the we will get you attitudes, the violence will continue unless something else is done and I do not want to see any country end up being a human factory for war, it is not fare for the survivors or the dead.

As for me, from a long line of military, political and social actavists and pacifists too. I am a German Jew, grandmother from germany, I am also a Russian Doukhobor, whose run in canada was shit and end of the day we were thrown in camps children taken away and the only thing people remember about us is that my people protested naked because if the government could take our homes and children why not our clothing too. My grandmother came here and moved to a very small community in the Youkon and went into construction, where the first nations gladly took my family in because they too had a shit run in the world. Hence the idea of giving your life for a country, to me, is foolish, what we have here with family and life is so much greater than death. Great if there is a heaven, too bad one have to wait so long for ones loved ones to join you and one miss out on so much. I have a HUGE family, those who were foced to join, have joined out of free will and those who were shot by them, so yes I know that background well. I am not for any side, just the sides of people who have lost their loved ones and are stuck living out thier lives knowing that their loved one joined up and knew they would/could die. What I am saying is that this terrorism thing is far greater than we expect, that there will be survivors and we should keep in mind that whole veitnam thing and the after affect it had. Great, you shoot a terrorist, what do you do with the guy who shot him/her and now cannot deal with what they have done? What about survivors guilt? The mental issues that will develop amungst some survivors? The drug and alcohol abuse that will develop with a few?

I also know there has to be a better way.

Arlene

PS I AM LOVING THIS FORUM!!!

[Kitz E Kat]

Awesome post Arlene!
Gonna have to print it out to have a proper read of it!
Same applies to Duder's post , awesome stuff :-)

Damm printer's, have 3, none really work right,my fault :-(


I agree "there has to be a better way", such a simple proposition !