unloaded five shots into him

[TreeFrog]

Ok so I'm putting this in the Conspiracies (forumdisplay.php?f=7) section because it is just too much.
Have a read..
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13391824,00.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mr Whitby said: "An Asian guy ran on to the train. As he ran, he was hotly pursued by what I knew to be three plain-clothes police officers. "As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified.

"He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor.

"One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Now think of you sitting in a coffe shop someplace.
You are a bit tired but you are in the normal place you go after every day of work on the way home..
You recall the strange guy that sat at your table yesterday.. Could not work him out at all.. Oh well it takes all types.
Tonight is dinner with the girlfriend so you picked up something nice on the way past the local Deli..
Oh Shit the train. you jump up grab jacket, put the money for the coffe on the tablle and leg it out the door.
You get to the train and see a bunch of guys chasing you!!! Never seen them before in your life but they want you bad..
You slip and stumble.. Over you go and one lands on top of you.. then your whole body goes into shock. you are not sure why. it is too late to ask any questions....You are dead

What do you think?

[MrsMo]

It sounds like the man was down and could easily have been taken prisoner. The police over-reacted unless there's something we're not hearing in the article. I certainly HOPE there's something we're not being told in the article anyway. Because otherwise your chilling scenario is quite possible; then the only thing that the police can say is he should have stopped when he saw it was police chasing him - and I don't know if I would/could have stopped if I saw a bunch of people with guns chasing me.

[Kitz E Kat]

Train full of people , what you think is a suicide bomber, you shoot , you shoot again and again , till that dude ain't flitching an inch, then he's dead, you shoot in the head , cos his body is ( you think) strapped full of explosives.
Or i guess you could just say "Pardon me my dear sir, could i bother you and please ask you to refrain from blowing up the train, jolly good sir" !

Me , id shoot.

[SyntaxHeir]

Who would you shoot Kitz? Every neverous looking person on the train? Anyone who falls outside of ordinary behavior? Someone carrying a bundle underneath their jacket? Somebody fleeing from people dressed *in plain clothes* who are unexplicably chasing him?

Why don't we just execute every passenger as they board the train just to "be on the safe side" because, well... "you never know."

[Kitz E Kat]

Sure , then the train will be safe !

Seriously, the guy was wearing a heavy coat on a hot day, i would not run if during the day in a busy tube station i was "chased" by 3 plain clothes officers with guns, i would stop and put up my paws, i would be scared shitless, and so would every "normal" person.

There is only one type of person who would run under those circumstances, someone with something to hide , and prepared to risk his life.

[SyntaxHeir]

Well maybe it's just me and my over developed sense of individual privacy and liberty but if I was cornered by three people that wanted to do me harm I'd see if I couldn't take at least one of them with me.

"Your friends might get me in a rush, but not before I turn your head into a canoe. You die first... get it?"

--Wyatt Earp, Tombstone [the movie, not a real quote]

I dunno I didn't bother to read the article. Did they announce themselves as police officers? If so, that would change my perspective.

[Kitz E Kat]

"When a naked man with a hard on and a knife, chases a woman down an alley way , i figure he ain't collecting for the Red Cross" Dirty Harry!

Yesterday more bomb's wen't off in the tube's, well actually they failed to go off but were planted, today more suspicious activity.
The tube's would be full of armed police , including plain clothes, only a total idiot would "think" , "oh, shit three men are chasing me with gun's , i best run", under that set of circumstances.
Had he stoped and put his hands in the air, he would be alive, his call.
Innocent people are dead as a result of idiot's planting bomb's, i would wan't the police to take no chance with my life and the life of other's.
To protect and serve, that's what they did.

[TreeFrog]

Ok so he may well have been a guy with intent to blow up loads of people on a train.
But hell when you are on the ground and someone is on top of you what you gona to do anyway.?
The thing is it opens up a way of using deadly force that is a little to close to full on tyriny.
It may as well be me and the boys in white sheets from the Gun Control thread.

So another little story:

You are an illegal immigrant. you are running away form some mess back home in wherever and you find yourself in big London. You have on your back everything you own.
You have been looking for work but it is hard because you have very little English.
The country is in a bureaucratic mess because some stupid fools seem to have set off a bunch of bombs. Getting asylum or any help is getting harder.
A few of the jobs you have had might have been questionable legally but you cant be sure and you needed the money.
You find yourself being chased by some guys. You dont know who they are or why they want you but it looks bad. Perhaps you think of being sent back to the mess in whatever country you are from. But they dont look like police they have no uniforms.
During your frantic run you fall over, someones knee lands on your back and ....... bang bang bang bang bang. you are dead.

You have been set up by a bombing group or just singled out and used as a scapegoat.

The security teams have saved the day, avanged the dead, and cleaned the streets. Three cheers.

I'm sorry if I keep going on about it.. I come from a country that has seen scapegoat after scapegoat found and used by the UK.
I will take every move and statement with so much salt it would make most spit.
I hope they have managed to find the culprits and do stop the bombing.
I hope it will never happen again.
I'm not an anti UK police force guy but I am very suspicious.

Later.

[Kitz E Kat]

I'm not an anti UK police force guy but I am very suspicious.
And for very good reason's TreeFrog
They are adept at setting people up , i guess time will tell the truth , it alway's does.

In this instance i think they did the right thing, but i could be well wrong..

[Daremo]

The question was asked:Ok so he may well have been a guy with intent to blow up loads of people on a train.
But hell when you are on the ground and someone is on top of you what you gona to do anyway.?Answer:

Blow up the train and the policemen. It is a common practice to have either a 'ripcord' or a 'deadman switch' on the bombs. Just getting the guy on the ground is not enough. He could still detonate the bomb. Perhaps the policeman overreacted, but suppose he didn't? Another train goes up and more innocents die.

It's a fine line and a judgement call on the part of the police who are trying to protect you! The police are human, they make mistakes and they do the best they can. If we didn't have assholes blowing up innocent women and children the police would never be put in this position in the first place.

The media will convict the police, in the eyes of the citizens, before an inquiry into the matter is ever held by the authorities. That is wrong. The policeman may have less than a few seconds to make a life-or-death decision. If he's wrong, many, many people could die.

If you absolutely know that you could do a better job -- then become a policeman. Most of you have never,ever been in a situation of having to kill someone. Most of you have never, ever been in a situation where someone else's life hangs in the balance and you have an instant to act -- wrong decision and someone dies. Worse yet, you've never, ever been in a situation where you must let someone you know and care about die so that you can stop something from happening that would ultimately kill hundreds of others.

To kill the wrong man is a terrible, to not kill the right man is a tragedy as many innocents will die. It's a hard decision, one which no sane person would want, a few brave men accept it as a matter of duty and honor - to protect you and your children.

[Kitz E Kat]

Behind you 100% on that D
You gotta put yourself there , i would have done the same.

[TreeFrog]

Ok point taken.
But guess what. He was not the bad guy with a bomb. He may never have seen a bomb.
I dont know if I could have done any different. It is true. with the atmosphere of London after the bombs.!!. I really hope I could have done it different though.
However just look at the implications.

I quote myself.
The thing is it opens up a way of using deadly force that is a little to close to full on tyriny.

Are we going to build a world that is a tyranny so we can defend ourselves from a tyranny??
Or are we going to use it as an excuse to build a tyranny because that is the way we tick?
What will the price be of living in such a world? It is too open for corruption!
We have enough of that already..so to add this as a tool is too much.

Is it a tyranny that we are defending ourselves from?
It is more like a ghost.
What is it that lurks in the dark?
Why is it dark to us?

[Kitz E Kat]

Ken Livingstone ( the lord mayor of London) , did indicate that he would be happy to introduce a "shoot to kill policy" today.

Don't forget there was a "shoot to kill policy" in the North, rather controversial at the time , now we are about to have one in London...

Ken Livingstone ( someone id admire), is in essence a good dude , he is responding to what is a threat to the "ordinary" folk of London.

I'd rather see one "innocent" dude dead as a result of a mistake, than many dead as a result of some Amnesty International way of doin things, their way is "all bad people are good and have right's , all good people have fuck all right's, bad people are good and good people must put up with bad people cos they have "right's", yeah right !
Assholes

[TreeFrog]

I'm not familiar with the Amnesty International approach..
If it is as wishy washy as that then ya down the sink..

Ahh it is all so bloody gray..

I just dont trust people with power and guns.. I dont trust people with guns but with a licence to use them..

Ya I have heard some good things about Ken Livingstone too. seems to want to do more than just draw a good check.

[Kitz E Kat]

I hear ya TreeFrog, Ken Livingstone was our best friend for many year's.
He ain't a "follow the leader" type dude, sure he ain't perfect , but pretty close !( he was fucked out of the Labour party).

Your in a situation, this guy could kill you and many other's or you could kill him, who get's there first ?

I hate flying, really i do , the thing i try to think about is that the pilot want's to go home to!

The police officer wanted to go home to....

As for Amnesty International, they object to people objecting to criminals, they fight for the right's of criminals, i never heard a word out of Amnesty International for years, till two shit heads got shot robbing a post office, Amnesty International wan't an "inquery" into this, fuck they never wanted any inquirey into any rape case , or any victim of crime, no , they just want an "inquirey" as to why robber's got shot.

Fuck them .....

[duder]

Train full of people , what you think is a suicide bomber, you shoot , you shoot again and again , till that dude ain't flitching an inch, then he's dead, you shoot in the head , cos his body is ( you think) strapped full of explosives.
Or i guess you could just say "Pardon me my dear sir, could i bother you and please ask you to refrain from blowing up the train, jolly good sir" !

Me , id shoot.

uhh... don't take this the wrong way Kitz, but isn't this thought process a bit 'contradictory' as compared to your opinion of death sentences? it seems, to me anyhow, that someone who was opposed to the death penalty for possibility of an innocent being killed would be even more opposed to blasting the hell out of someone just cause they were wearing something you consider to be strange and started running because somebody was chasing them (maybe he had some kinda drugs or something on him, who knows), right? wouldn't the person who recieved due process of the law and a trial by a jury of his/her peers be more likely 'rightly-accused'?

to be completely fair, i pretty much agree with your statement above, but felt i had to point out the inconsistencies. well done english police dudes, keep up the good work.

peace,

duder

[Kitz E Kat]

I don't see any contradiction duder.
It's two entirely different situations, the police were trying to prevent the possible death of many people, including themselves, that's self preservation.

They had no choice in what they did.
Hopefully they did the right thing.

[Kitz E Kat]

Quote me ! Hopefully they did the right thing.
It would seem they did'nt.

They guy was from Brazil , had been working in London for three years as an electrician, had no connections with any group, and is totally innocent.

He jumped a security barrier, and ran, was warned to stop or be shot, he kept running.

He should have had enough english to understand "stop or be shot" , so i dunno .....

[Rikku]

Yeah but they were plain clothes police, if somebody was running after me with a gun I wouldnt be stopping to check if they were actually police...

[MrsMo]

The guy KNEW there had been bombings just one week prior; there was more than just one guy with a gun yelling "STOP, Police!" yet he just kept on going. I don't see how the police had any other option but to shoot. As Daremo pointed out: Blow up the train and the policemen. It is a common practice to have either a 'ripcord' or a 'deadman switch' on the bombs. Just getting the guy on the ground is not enough. He could still detonate the bomb. Perhaps the policeman overreacted, but suppose he didn't? Another train goes up and more innocents die.I don't think wrong decisions should necessarily go unpunished, but it's easy to sit here and point fingers. We need to remember that the police have an impossible task - we expect them to protect the public without making any wrong decisions; without allowing their own fears or prejudices to interfere with those decisions. I couldn't do it.

[Kitz E Kat]

Not sure i could either Mrs Mo.
It's a rather thankless task at time's.

[TreeFrog]

You guys are probably right.. I'm not sure I could do any better either as much as I might hope. But Bloody Fucking Shite (excuse my use of what some call French) It is a shame if a panicked man with dark skin has his head blown off..
I suppose it will tame everyone a little.
Hell I'm not going to get a sun tan in the UK for a long time and I wont run any place either.. even if I'm late.. Especially not a train station.

Like I said before guns freak me out.. especially when others have them.

Respect to those who use them and so much more respect to those who don't.

[Kitz E Kat]

If you heard all this sorry !
The guy somehow ended up on a list of "suspect's".
He was followed as he left his apartment, he boarded a bus, got off the bus and went to the tube station, he jumped the barrier ( perhaps he did'nt like paying for the tube ) , that's when they moved in ?

Why let the guy get that far?
Why not just pull the guy as he came out of his apartment?
Why let him board a bus ?
Why let him go to a tube station?

There are way to many question about this .....

[TreeFrog]

You miss the obvious KK. The boys in black were being financed by the fragmented rail services.. They just want to stop people from cheating the ticketing system.
The poor guy panicked and ran..

I would guess if he was a bomber he would have used a day pass or something. Something that would not attract too much attention. But at least he would have paid the fair. Tax would have been paid on the ticket too and everyone would be happy. Well in a financial sense at least.
Ok at least the majority would be happy in a financial sense.. and that is what matters right.!!!
Right!???!
The majority being happy, at least financially.!

[Kitz E Kat]

"The guy was wearing a heavy coat on a hot day , jumped the security barrier and ran when told to stop" , that was the jist of the story....

Latest , due to a keystone cop style fuckup he was not the guy they were ment to be following , he was a nobody.
He was NOT wearing a heavy coat on a hot day, he was wearing a light denim jacket.
He did NOT jump any security barrier, he paid in like everybody else.

He did run , when he saw the train sitting there , he ran to catch it, and was sitting on a seat when the "law" turned up and shot him, eight times...

The "law" in England did what it does really well , lie ........

[TreeFrog]

I said
I will take every move and statement with so much salt it would make most spit.

I wish I was wrong.. poor bastard... poor country all caught up in a game show hosted by fools.
Well they know the run of the show now. they have been doing it for a long time on account of Northern Ireland.
Once the first quick statement has been made and a few weeks have passed they can say anything. Most of the population are too board by it already to pay any attention to it.
The Mud has been slung and it sticks to enough of the minds enough of the time.. Standard political psychology.

The shock factor is gone. The Big Brother show or a soap-opera on TV has something new all the time.. it's much more interesting...

Fuck it is bad enough the guy got shot but a Police force that Lies about it all.. Oh man that is some bad shit.. I thought Politicians get paid enough to do all the ling

[Taffy]

Everybody lies cept me and you -- and I ain't so sure about you