Are you kidding me really !!!

[coffee]

I read this earlier today and my first thought was more of the MAN telling us what we can and can't do !!

Are we really the Land of the FREE I don't think so : (

I remember packing my kids lunch cause to be honest the School lunches were just to expensive and the nutritional value was to say the least Lacking.

Now it appears that that the " Government/School system " has stepped in sayin that ( We the People can no longer say what is Best for our own Kids ) I call bullshit it's all about State Funding and the State could care less about our kids Health. What about the Parents that just can't afford to spend the daily amount for there kids lunch, this kinda BULLSHIT just pisses me off so BAD that I can't even think straight. Really give me a Fuckin Break what about the Parents that are going to have a hard time paying the amount you say they must pay to be " GOOD PARENTS " what about the family's that have like three two, three, four kids and just don't seem to fall in the the guide lines that you set up for FREE LUNCHES just goin to let those kids go hungry !!! I bet you would you SLIMY PIECES OF SHIT it's all about the MONEY with ya GOVERNMENT FUCKS if I had a smiley that was flippin you off right now I would so post it !!! :mad:

I know on my local level ( My city and there bullshit Politics ) their Attendance is based on weather the kids are there during there lunch periods are not, if you check them out before there lunch period you have to provide a reason and after there lunch period it just doesn't matter wither they have a reason or not, cause see they got that GOVERNMENT money !!

The link to the Story I almost forgot in my Rant http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110411/us_yblog_thelookout/chicago-school-bans-homemade-lunches-the-latest-in-national-food-fight

Ohhh yeah I copied the whole article just in case they remove the Link : )

[Daremo]

How's that "CHANGE" workin' out for ya?

395

[coffee]

How's that "CHANGE" workin' out for ya?

395

Fuck Ya Obama !!!

If I only had a Middle figure smiley to give back to ya ; )

[MrsMo]

I hardly know what to say, I'm so appalled at the presumption of the mentioned school districts. It's outrageous and one of the things that I hope will finally get the attention of the American public. We have got to start standing up to government interference at every level. It's time people start taking responsibility for their own actions and taking that responsibility out of the hands of those who want to lead the rest of us around by our noses. Enough! Government is a necessary evil, but we have allowed it to invade every level of our lives and it has got to stop.

[Spoofed Existence]

That's horrible... At my school, here in the Netherlands, we didn't have "lunch". We had a lunch break, where we were allowed to do anything we liked. Me, I usually just walked around the area in my school, eating the sandwiches my mum always made for me every morning... I don't think you could even buy lunch at my school, except maybe some candy and a few semi-healthy things.
Basically, you should move to the Netherlands, coffee.

I still don't get the ever "Obama flaming" though. I haven't seen much I really disagree too much with. And I bet his opponent would do a lot more I would disagree with. Yes, even the forcing of insurance will be good for you guys in the long run. I can know, I've lived in the system - in its evolved version - for all my life and it may not be perfect, but we all gasp at how crazy the American system is. It's a small step to the sane direction, I believe, though it takes time to settle. And I hope it gets the time...

[Daremo]

Ahhh Spoofed, my friend, you are young yet and I fear you miss the two biggest points. Let me explain for you:

You said it yourself;

... Yes, even the forcing of insurance will be good for you guys in the long run....

First the law is unconstitutional in that it "forces" one to spend, out-of-pocket for insurance or fines you if you don't. The government does not have the authority to "Force" me to spend my money for something I don't want that enriches them or their designates. It's just not right.

You see when a government "forces" it's own will over the will of the people then you have gone from a Republic or a Democracy to an Empire, Monarchy, Theocracy or plain old-fashioned Dictatorship. Rationalize how you will, but "force" is "FORCE"! Practically all despotic governments had the "best interest" of the people in mind when they started but sooner or later it becomes the will of a select group who "Knows better". Eventually One man emerges who has charisma and force of will, he leads because of his clearer vision - he calls it "My Struggle", "My Battle", "Mein Kampf". He is a statesman, a leader, a Fuhrer and he will save us all from ourselves.

Europeans should know this better than others but, sadly, you all seem to have forgotten the lessons and the words "Nie Wieder" mean little anymore. If you think I am blowing things out of proportion just re-read history from 1929 to 1939 and see the rise in Germany, see the rise of world-wide Nationalism, see the many small wars between minor nations which allow the major powers to test their weapons and tactics via proxy. Draw the parallels between then and now.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

[Spoofed Existence]

Ahhh Spoofed, my friend, you are young yet and I fear you miss the two biggest points. Let me explain for you:

You said it yourself;


First the law is unconstitutional in that it "forces" one to spend, out-of-pocket for insurance or fines you if you don't. The government does not have the authority to "Force" me to spend my money for something I don't want that enriches them or their designates. It's just not right.


Really? Is it not right? As far as I know, every country of the world does it. It's called tax. Sure, it's wrapped in a different facade. You could say you never owned the money, as sometimes it never actually comes onto your bank account, but that's simply because others pay it directly for you (at least here in the Netherlands that happens with paychecks).
But it's exactly what you say it is: you spend money for something you don't want that enriches them or their designates or any random human being in your country that you might not care about the slightest.

Let's propose a different solution: the government will pay the hospital bills and all you have to do for that is pay yet another kind of tax. There you are, the same system, a little bit worse, with no certain different forced spendings than usual - just tax. Now I said it's a bit worse. Why? Because with only one "insurance company" there is no competition on the price, and what we are left with is a monopoly.

Now, I hate tax. I think they're way too high in my company; I get to pay about 50% of all money I bill my customers for people who refuse to work, or to put cops on the street that barely do anything. But I don't mind paying for insurance at all. Let me explain that next.
First of all, life is not a gamble, and it shouldn't be. If you're not insured, it is. Because you don't know if you will or will not get ill and if you're not insured you won't be able to pay the bills (or have to sell the house to do so). We've been there: my mum fell ill about 2 years ago, a simple bacterial infection, resulting in not just antibiotics and many insanely expensive tests, but even open heart surgery.
Guess what? We had no idea she was going to fall ill. There was no reason to asume she may even get a bacterial infection. It happens, quite often. And luckily my mum got out with nothing but a scar - still having our house.
The costs were in the hundreds of thousands of euro's. My parents would have been able to pay for this by selling the house, I guess, but insurance saved our ass. And we're quite wealthy; many others would not be able to afford it, and that, in the US, makes an uninsured person's life a gamble, even if one could easily have been saved.
So I assume you're not insured. I really hope you can manage to get your hands on a couple of hundred thousand dollars - then I think you're safe for most (but still not all) illnesses.

Now I don't mind a bit of "Robin Hood". I don't mind paying a little bit more money to make sure others can keep their house or, even better, their lives. And yes, that's what we with taxes as well: we pay for social warefare of other people. Except that being unemployed is more often a choice than falling terminally ill is.

Finally, but I'm not sure about this: I think insurance in the Netherlands must be a lot cheaper than in the US. Simply because more people are insured, and thus the risks are a lot less for the insurance companies. So probably the poor don't even get the option of being insured, and may simply be left to die. By forcing everybody to be insured, more people will be insured and it will become cheaper for everybody...

I have a friend in California. She was ill, suffering from quite many pains for a long period. She couldn't do anything... She simply didn't have the money, because she was unemployed - and not out of choice, but she simply couldn't find a job.
Really, can't you see there's something wrong with that system? What if it is your children that fall ill, or someone else you love, what would you do? Let them sell their house - if they can? Would you sell your house? Or would you let them die, just because you wouldn't pay $100 per month? (That's about the cost in the Netherlands and would probably be the same in the US when it stabalizes - though I get 70 euro's per month from the government to pay for that, so for those with little income will only pay 20-30 euro per month).

I really hope it never happens to you, someone you love falling ill and not being able to pay for it. But just keep in your mind... It might, if "God's Dice" end up at your expense.

[coffee]

I still don't get the ever "Obama flaming" though.

My Flaming of him simply stems from him not walking what he's talking, he talks a good talk but that's all it ever is with him just talk he has done nothing of what he said he would do ( if not the exact opposite ) and then he blames it on everyone else. I honestly don't think he cares for Our Country what so ever. On the Insurance topic I agree with D it's not right to force me to pay what ever you tell me I have to pay and if I don't pay it then I get fined and if I still resist I get to go to jail. My Company pays for my Insurance Monthly and that payment is a lot more than a 100.00 Dollars a month, I could only Imagine what the Government would have me pay, what we need is Insurance Reform.

[Spoofed Existence]

Damn it. I hate the "Quick reply" button, followed by pressing "Reply to this thread", where you loose everything you wrote...


what we need is Insurance Reform.

Exactly. But how? Insurance companies can't decrease the prices so that more people can afford being insured: because so few people are insured, the risk is simply too great to do that. It's a stalemate: the people can't be insured because it's too expensive and the companies can't decrease the prices because it's too risky and expensive. Also, it's not a good market in the US because so few people are insured, so there is too little competition there.
See, Obama just did the only one thing one can do to reform the insurance: make insurance mandatory. Insurance companies get lesser risks because of the more customers allowing them to decrease the prices. More people will be insured and it will become interesting for competitors to start insurance companies, forcing others to decrease their prices.
Yes, you need an insurance reform. And Obama did just the only thing one can do to initiate that.

Daremo, you may think that the system in Europe is "outdated" and even fascist, but have you Americans ever seen a documentary about how insane the European insurance system is? I bet not. We have, vice versa; there are many of those about the US. About deaths, about inevitable deaths, about bankruptcy of so many people because they couldn't afford to pay the hospital bills. And who weren't insured; whether it is because they didn't want to be or couldn't afford it I don't know and doesn't matter as this system will eventually fix both.
It would be funny if I wouldn't have any empathy.

About other problems with Obama I don't know, about him not doing what he said he would. But I do know about the republicans's majority in the senate, blocking much of what Obama would want to do.

[Daremo]

A tax would be fine -- that's not forced. You see, taxation cannot happen here without representation. Meaning that an open debate and voting on the tax by elected representitives must take place. That did *NOT* happen with health care. The Democrats were totally in control of both houses of our congress and they created this totally behind closed doors without any open debate. They wouldn't even publish the proposed laws so that Americans could contact their congressmen about the law. It was totally created by a small group of individuals in conjunction with insurance company lawyers. They didn't even consult with Doctors about this bill. It was bought and paid for by the insurance companies who put big bucks in Nancy Pelosi's pocket.

This was forced by the agenda of a select group who "knows better" than the people. There is even video of Nancy saying just that - she said that Americans don't know what's good for them and she must step in because she knows better. That is ego and wrong.

There are many differences between a legally levied tax and this *ILLEGAL* non-sense the government has done. The *MAJORITY* of Americans do not want this system. It's not that we don't want to fix the problems -- but this is *NOT* fixing the problems - it is causing more problems.. For example the cost of this is much, much more than the out-of-pocket cost. America cannot afford the cost to our economy of trillions over the next 10 years to pay for this.

And lastly -- this does not solve the problems that you are talking about. The insurance companies can still CANCEL YOUR INSURANCE IN THE CASE OF A CATASTROPHIC ILLNESS. Check it out -- Children under a certain age are exempt and cannot be canceled but older people can. Obama lied again. It has upper limits on paying out. At the end of the day it is *NOT* universal, permanent health care for all -- it *IS* mandatory health INSURANCE for all with all the attendant flaws, including upper limits on coverage.

We still get to sell our house and die without medical care - but now we've ruined our economic recovery as a nation as well.

How nice - how fucking wonderful -- Spoofed - read the law - I have.

[Spoofed Existence]

Okay, so the flaws run deeper than I knew. But you missed out on what is - for me - the most important part of the matter. Let's see...


A tax would be fine -- that's not forced. You see, taxation cannot happen here without representation. Meaning that an open debate and voting on the tax by elected representitives must take place. That did *NOT* happen with health care. The Democrats were totally in control of both houses of our congress and they created this totally behind closed doors without any open debate. They wouldn't even publish the proposed laws so that Americans could contact their congressmen about the law. It was totally created by a small group of individuals in conjunction with insurance company lawyers. They didn't even consult with Doctors about this bill. It was bought and paid for by the insurance companies who put big bucks in Nancy Pelosi's pocket.
Okay, that is wrong.... I have to agree on that.


This was forced by the agenda of a select group who "knows better" than the people. There is even video of Nancy saying just that - she said that Americans don't know what's good for them and she must step in because she knows better. That is ego and wrong.
Actually, I don't know "Nancy", but I have to agree with her. Most of the people don't know what's right for them. Most people are simply too stupid. You and I aren't, and we are perfectly well capable of finding out what's good for ourselves, but many are not. The question is whether "we" (the people) should protected against "ourselves". Personally, I think there needs to be some protection and in fact, there already is in pretty much every country on different areas.
Okay, she shouldn't have said it. I can say it but probably wouldn't if I were in politics - unless that was my strategy...


There are many differences between a legally levied tax and this *ILLEGAL* non-sense the government has done. The *MAJORITY* of Americans do not want this system. It's not that we don't want to fix the problems -- but this is *NOT* fixing the problems - it is causing more problems.. For example the cost of this is much, much more than the out-of-pocket cost. America cannot afford the cost to our economy of trillions over the next 10 years to pay for this.
So, what would be fixing the problem in your opinion?


And lastly -- this does not solve the problems that you are talking about. The insurance companies can still CANCEL YOUR INSURANCE IN THE CASE OF A CATASTROPHIC ILLNESS. Check it out -- Children under a certain age are exempt and cannot be canceled but older people can. Obama lied again. It has upper limits on paying out. At the end of the day it is *NOT* universal, permanent health care for all -- it *IS* mandatory health INSURANCE for all with all the attendant flaws, including upper limits on coverage.
Okay, that's wrong as well... Though I think this may fix itself if health insurance is mandatory. Because it will become feasible for other companies to start insurance companies and compete with the price and ALSO the agreement. Some company will start agreeing never to throw people out and others can't do anything but go along with it. That's my guess, however.
Though it should have been one of the first things to change in law. I assume it would be possible for Obama to include a law saying health insurance companies have to pay for all costs that were made by falling ill in the insured period? I think he should have done that first, then.

(About reading the law - it's not much use reading the US law for someone who has only been in the US once, is it? (Actually, twice, I went to Canada for one day))

Okay, so the system is a lot more flawed than I could have began to imagine. But I do think you missed on the most important part for me; though it's less interesting for you, probably.
See, you said the European system was wrong, even comparing it to fascism. However, the European system is the properly executed system Obama must have wanted. People can not be booted from their health insurance. It is cheap (20 euro a month for the poor). It works well. Sure, it's not perfect, but actual live-changing problems due to insurance companies are extremely rare.
You find this wrong, apparently; after me debating in it's favor (because the things I suggested not knowing how flawed the US system was) you only talked about how it doesn't work that way in the US because of the many flaws. That is, you seemed to disagree with the theory of the system - but only covered the practical issues in the US right now.
Because I'm grateful insurance is forced upon us. Because otherwise we would Americanize: less people would be insured, insurance will become more expensive causing... even less people to be insured. The result? Death and bankruptcy, quite like the American system (though maybe without a few of the flaws).

How is it going with the law anyway? Is it still "going to happen"? Are people going to be fined? Are people going to be insured? Because I'm very curious what will happen if it is, whether my theories that all will solve itself in the health insurance companies will be right or not...

[Daremo]

Spoofed when I was referring to Fascism, I was referring to the US law, not the European versions. The US version has been flawed beyond all repair. It is not universal health CARE; it is universal health INSURANCE. A big difference.

Since this was created in conjunction with the insurance company lobbyists and lawyers there will always be a way that you can run out of benefits. It is not economically feasible for a private company to continue to pay for extended periods and make a profit. There *HAS* to be a profit or the private company would go out of business.

You see there are some people with catastrophic illnesses who can live for decades - but at a prohibitive cost. This outlay is against the very principles of an insurance company who makes a profit from charging the masses and paying out only to a few. This would mean that they must increase the premiums that the government "forces" us to pay out-of-pocket until one of 3 things happen:

1) The poor can no longer pay and their benefits are terminated
2) The poor can no longer pay and the cost is shifted to the rest who can
3) The poor can no longer pay and the government pays for them

In the case of #1 - we're right back where we are today with those who can afford and those who can't and some people die.

In the case of #2 - it causes those who can to slowly go broke supporting an increasing population who live "on the dole" and never have jobs as the productive citizens can no longer pay the premiums for the rest of the country. As we see in the UK this can span generations of bums who get paid to live and mooch off the public welfare and the productive citizens. I have listened to a number of UK citizens gripe about those on the dole and their uneducated offspring.

In the case of #3 this subsidization would have to balanced by heavier taxes to pay for those who can't pay creating an effect similar to #2.

Additionally, the US system also covers Illegal Aliens. That's right, just come across the border from Mexico and get you health care paid for by the Gringos. This is great for Mexico but will bankrupt the US as now we're supporting an illegal, shadow population.

I personally don't feel that an ILLEGAL alien deserves more than a good meal and a free ride back to his own country. If a person wants to immigrate to the US there are programs to take care of that. There are humanitarian programs for refugees and political dissidents to come here. But just sneaking across the border doesn't cut it -- GTFO! The MILLIONS of illegals already in this country use educational, health, law enforcement, and every other type of resource without contributing as a productive citizen. How much better would American education and health care be with all that time, money and resources better diverted to our own problems?

[Daremo]

Most of the people don't know what's right for them. Most people are simply too stupid. You and I aren't, and we are perfectly well capable of finding out what's good for ourselves, but many are not. The question is whether "we" (the people) should protected against "ourselves".

Let me expound upon this...

So you and I are OK? Well who will exempt us from following the rules made for the 'stupid' people?

Who gets to decide what's best? How are they selected?

If they're elected by the stupid people then why should I think that they know best? Stupid people can't pick good leaders, can they?

What happens if the people who know best enact a law that I, or you, think is wrong, do we have to follow it?

What happens if the people who know best decide that you're an enemy of the state?

What happens if you spend years building up a business that is profitable and the people who know best nationalize it and take it away from you at no recompense?

What happens if stupid people have to wear an insignia on their clothes showing that they are stupid and have to be taken care of?

What happens if the people who know best decide that we should put all the stupid people together in separate locations, away from people who know best, and make them work all day.

What happens if you substitute "Master Race" for "People who know best" and "Jew" for "stupid people" in the above statements? Does it make them less valid, more valid?

Seriously -- who gets to know best and what happens if we disagree with it?

Throughout all recorded history the group that knows best always becomes despotic and eventually becomes just one man. Look at the Communist revolution in Russia. The "Party" was headed by Lenin and Trotsky and few others -- slowly it became just Lenin (which isn't even his real name). He was succeeded by Joe Stalin - as big a murderer as Hitler - Joe just did it internally.

Do you see that benign rule over others who don't know what's good for them is demeaning for the ruled, corrupting for the rulers and creates an atmosphere for violent revolution. Look what's happening all over the middle east...The people are rising against despotic governments. It's hard for them, many have been ruled for many decades. How does such a group establish a new, benign government without falling back into despotic rule? The tendency is for strong, charismatic leaders to become dictators and without such a leader many revolutions fail for lack of a rallying point.

Look at Cuba - the revolution was for the people, Castro was going to free them from the Tyranny of capitalist corruption and slavery. Look how much better off they are today. Look how robust their economy is, look how well-educated, well-fed and happy the citizens are. See that they are no longer slaves, see that there are no state police who take people away in the night? See how much Castro has done for Cuba?

Spoofed your country doesn't know what's best for you, your people are stupid, so America is gonna come to your country and free the shit out of you. After we get done with the invasion and setting up a free and democratic election and reeducating your children to think like Americans you'll see it was all for the best.

Don't worry, Obama loves you.

[rikku]

http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/2181811.jpg

[rikku]

So yeah, I'm not a politician or anything, I pretty much avoid politics altogether. But your point #2 about the UK is true enough, I pay 20% of everything I earn to people that can't be arsed to go out and earn for themselves. But the way I see it, that's life! Fuel goes up, taxes go up, life goes on... Without wanting to sound too much like a tree hugger, life's just too short to worry for me, I'm happy just paying my way and doing the job I love :)

[pukn]

Ah, give soma to the people and they will do as you want. A couple of books that are great reads are "Animal Farm" and "1984" by George Orwell and also "A Brave New World" by Alduous Huxley. I'm not going to give a book report on these because I would like for you guys to read them. Who knows, maybe at some point, these books will be banned and burned because they are deemed materials for insurrectionists and anarchists.

I feel that we as a people have become apathetic because we have either become lazy or as long as we have our "soma", we are happy and content to do as we're told. Without getting into an existential debate, even stupid can have moments of clarity and or epiphanies. Many times, I have considered myself stupid, but what is the definition of stupid? As I grow older, I now understand the words of wisdom imparted to me by my parents and those who have been alive longer than I have. In many ways, I still feel stupid.

But I digress. I think those "who know better" are usually people who have an agenda to further themselves. If you're happy with someone else telling you what you can or can't do, then by all means, stand in silent acquiescence, but for me, I know I have a problem with authority, so I will not go into the night quietly.

As Emilio Zapata has said, "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"