Swastikas

[Rikku]

Whats the big deal? Just because the Nazi's used them, the swastika was in use thousands of years ago with a much calmer meaning! I just read an article about the swastika being completley banned in Europe after the prince wore one to a fancy dress party...

One other thing, how would you guys look on someone who got a tattoo of an eagle sitting atop a swastika?...

[Kitz E Kat]

It's not what it was , it was a buddist thing or something ?
I did hear of some dude trying to "rescue" the swastika as it was in it's original meaning.

It now stands for Nazi'ism , that's the way it is.

It will always stand for that.

You gotta remember that the English Royal family are actually from Germany , the name Windsor is not the actual name of the English royal family the real name is a German one , fucked if i can remember the name , a quick google should reveal it !. They changed the name to Windsor , it sounded , well , less German :-)


So prince Harry is only doin what come's naturall !

[Rikku]

Yeah, but what about the tattoo with the eagle, would that be bad?

[Kitz E Kat]

Me , i would think so !
Id see that and think this dude listen's to "Oi" music, beat's up "packies" during lunch break , and is an all round nasty dude ...

That's my perception , perhaps wrong , but id hazard a guess and say most people would think like that.....

You did'nt go and get a tattoo of an eagle sitting on a swastika by any chance did ya Rikku ? :-)

[Rikku]

Not yet...it looked like a nice design, I think i'll go for something a little more satanist, that's less offensive...

[Kitz E Kat]

Don't be the idiot that has to get laser treatment in a few year's time to "try" remove a tattoo.
It's well expensive , and not guarranteed to remove it.

Lucky for me i never felt the need to have a tattoo, if i did i would be covered in all sort's of shit that i would be well pissed off with now !

Things change , so will you!

Chippies rule "measure twice, cut once" , hear what i'm saying :-)

[Daremo]

The swastika also was used as a native American Indian symbol as well, however, as has been said, it's totally linked with Nazi's now.

As to getting the tattoo -- I would like you to consider the following:

If you put a swastika on yourself, you are saying that you believe in;


One Master Race of pure German Aryan blood. (You are Aryan German, aren't you? If not Hitler would have had you enslaved or executed as 'inferior')
The enslavement or genocide of all people not of pure German Aryan blood.
The establishment of a hereditary dictatorship by those of pure German Aryan blood
The abolition of private ownership of any property by non-Aryans
The re-distribution of all wealth, including money, precious metals and jewels as well as art masterpieces from 'inferior' owners to Aryans.
The enslavement or execution of any that hold any religion above the Nazi Party. Catholics, Jews - anybody.
So - still wanna be a Nazi? Do you advocate genocide and the murdering or enslavement of millions, if not billions of men, women and children.

If you're not a pure Aryan why would you wear a swastika? Hitler would have killed the skinheads as inferior as quickly as he killed his own thugs, the brown-shirts, once he no longer needed them. Most people who wear the swastika do so thinking it makes them a rebel or tough or cool. Some wear it thinking it means 'White Power'. Hitler would have had them executed as inferior because they're not pure Aryan, white, in and of itself, meant nothing to Hitler. They wear the swastika not knowing what it truly represents to modern man -- and because they're idiots.

[SyntaxHeir]

So you want to get a Swastika tat? To what point and purpose? If it's just a rebellious thing, I'd look somewhere else. Unless of course you actually agree with the point Daremo lined out.

In my opinion the Swastika is no different than gettting a tat of a guy in a white hood burning a cross.

Tattoos are permanent man and I say don't get anything inked that you may change your opinion on. That being said I have a tat of a rattle snake and the words "Don't Tread on Me", my own variation on the Gadsden Flag but I don't see myself turning Pinko anytime soon so I'm still happy I got it.

Oh and Kitz, what's wrong with Oi? Sure some of the earliest stuff was a touch "insensitive" [i.e. Screwdriver] but the majority is just workin class Joes stickin together and causin a bit of rowdiness.

"Drinking and Fighting" songs can't be all bad. :)

[Rikku]

Well it was a nice idea while it lasted, might just get some satanic symbols or something along those lines, or that dudey alchemy symbol...

[SyntaxHeir]

Just don't get em anyplace you can't cover up easily, okay?

[Kitz E Kat]

That is well good advice Syntax , LOVE and HATE may look cool on your fingers , but you will look really silly at a job interview on a hot day with gloves on :-)

Oi music ain't that bad , but it does tend to pander to those that feel inclined to wan't to kill "black's" and promote hatred of "different" people's.
If i was "black" the last place i would wan't to be at is an Oi gig !

[SyntaxHeir]

That's true enough Kitz. However I think the same could be said of Rap music. I will admit to being a bit "on guard" when leaving a Chris Rock concert last year.

It's all a matter of not going where you could make yourself an easy target for those idgits who give the rest of the group a bad name. Sure that may be "unfair" or "intolerant" but as you said, if I was a black guy I wouldn't go to a Cock Sparrer or a Black Flag concert, and after what I would consider a near miss after the CR show, I won't be going to another one of those either.

Not fair but whoever promised you fair was full of it.

[Kitz E Kat]

Yeah , i would not fancy being there either :-(
Which is not good really , music is just that, music, you should be "allowed" enjoy it whatever colour you are.

I wonder did Bach fans beat the shit out of Beethoven fan's on the way out of a gig back in the old day's? :-)

[SyntaxHeir]

Are you kidding? In the gladiator days fans of a particular gladiator would often tangle with followers of another fighter. Oh man and if your boy killed a fan favorite, you'd best just watch out.

I know gladiators are bit far removed from Bach and Beehtoven but we're not doing anything new.

[TreeFrog]

Now I reread it this post is one big tangent but hey I'll post it anyway..

hrehehehehe lol

Hey .. careful there...
You could think a little here.. I'm not talking sensitive be nice dont embarrass me or anything like that..
The Swastika had a history many years before it was adopted by the Nazi party.. Its quite an interesting history.. The Jews even used it at one time.. It represented a flowing pattern of order and structure. Now it is very much Nazi.. But not necessarly German.

The Aryan people were supposed to be perfect... but was that exclusive to Germans.. and NB Hitler did not exactly fit the bill at all.

The German people today are probably in a position of being very .. I wont say sensitive because that is not the point at all here....
I'll say "disturbed" by the baggage the previous generation have handed them. A baggage we reinforce by associating Nazi and German and Swastikas.. A baggage I dont think they should have to carry.
When I talk to a young German I dont see a Nazi.. And when they look in the mirror I dont think they should see one either..

It is not as intense in the Eastern part. Most of the memories there are of more recent and quite hard Soviet type times.
But the children of the west are German and most are definitely not Nazi at all. Most are very embarrassed by it..

The Swastika will get relegated... Oddly though it will give the Nazi connotation of it much more power.. And the impact of seeing one will be bigger... The image will represent a forbidden underground group..
Some are two dumb to think of it this way but that is life.
Perhaps it will resurface later with new meaning for someone else.

The point I make is that we really do owe it to our German friends not to associate them so much with the Nazis..
At the time many felt they had no choice. That is no excuse but let me see you stand up to a bunch of thugs when half the neighbours are joined up and all the children are hypnotised by it. When you have to protect your grand parents and your wife and children.. and everyone else is going along with it too. Not right but damn hard to say no I expect..

I dont advocate any ban on anything but rather suggest we exercise a little awareness of what we say.
There ware many non German people who loved the idea of the Nazi program.. English, Irish, French, Italian, probably every country of the world had its supporters its opposition and its "I dont give a damn where do we make money" (oh ya IBM made it big then)

I think if it was not for the political embarrassment regarding the link between Swastika and Germany the Royal party joke thingy would have not been taken so seriously. This link is there because we put it there.

If you want to say "Nazi German Swastikas" then go ahead. Free Speech.
But if not than don't.

End of seaman..


lol

[duder]

i think most of us can agree that it's probably not a good idea for Rikku to get that swastika tattoo. it probably seems kinda strange (even crazy maybe) to some of people that someone would want to own anything (even an appendage) with a swastika on it.

having said that, i recall driving to the back gate of Camp Futenma (okinawa for the those not in the know) and seeing a t-shirt with a big ole' red swastika on it hanging in the window of a fairly respectable little shop. it wasn't one of those 'hole-in-the-wall' places, it was just a regular clothing shop. i had to go in, and enlisting the help of my wife, asked the staff about the shirt. i wasn't mad or anything, i was really just curious if they knew what that symbol 'stood for'. to my astonishment nobody working at the shop nor the owner himself seemed to have any idea. it appeared to be genuine ignorance as we were given the 'head cocked slightly to the side' confused look. they honestly didn't know what it was.

so, a few 20-something year old japanese kids and a 50 year old japanese man had no idea what a swastika was or what it stood for. to them, it was just another cool looking symbol that might sell a shirt or two.....

so, does the swastika really have the meaning (depending on geographic region of course) that we all think it does? or is it that most people are so caught up with the mess that nazi germany made some 65 years ago that they find it impossible to associate that image (swastika) with anything but pure evil nazis? maybe it's just that the okinawans are so damned relaxed that they don't remember/care about anything that happened over 2 weeks ago, i dunno?

basically, that experience kinda changed my image of the swastika. it doesn't have to be something automatically associated with hitler and the nazis, but can just be another cool looking symbol that might sell a few t-shirts...

in conclusion, Rikku, if you want to get a tattoo of a swastika, know that i won't look down on you, because i think i know your intentions. unfortunately though, about 99.9% of the world will. don't do it bud.. get one of those anarchy 'A' s or something, you know, the upside down A with the circle around it, people will hate you less for it.

i personally think what the nazis did some 65 odd years ago was indeed horrendous and should never be forgotten as long as this world exists. am personally exstatic that hitler put himself out of our misery like he did.

peace,

duder

[SyntaxHeir]

Regardless of what it "used" to mean or what it was "intended" to mean, there is a very clear and undeniable definition what it *is* now.

We call this "modern usage" or "popular usage" words change their meaning over time. That's why dictionaries will have "Archaic:" entries.

The word "gay" 60 years ago didn't mean homosexual.

For better or worse the swastika is irrevocably tied to the Nazis.

[Rikku]

Yeah, I could get and go live in Okinawa, might go down well with the girls =p Or I could just get something else that means something to me! Cheers Duder ;)

[Kitz E Kat]

And don't go getting your girlfriend's name tattooed on ya either , you may regret that! Trying to explain to Candy that "really Cindy did'nt mean nothin to me" when you have "i love Cindy" written on ya is gonna be an uphill battle :-)

[duder]

And don't go getting your girlfriend's name tattooed on ya either , you may regret that! Trying to explain to Candy that "really Cindy did'nt mean nothin to me" when you have "i love Cindy" written on ya is gonna be an uphill battle :-)

but it'd only take a $5(US) bottle of India Ink and a $7(US) pack of guitar strings to make that i in Cindy to an a for Candy!!! or, yeah, you could just not get one of those tattoos in the first place. it's up to you!!

peace,

duder

[Rikku]

OK, the most amazing thing happened today! Right here goes...Today I went over to my friends flat to help him move to another flat just over the street (yeah something about him getting thrown out) but anyway we cleared out all his stuff and were just playing around breaking stuff, he was pretty annoyed with his landlord see...anyway we found a really cool powder fire extinguisher thing so we decided to break it out and give it a try, so we emptied the whole thing all over the place, then fleeing due to choking and stuff...but anyway we went back to inspect the damage later on, and as expected the whole place was covered in a fine layer of powder...which was fun...so me being me a drew a big swastika in the powder on the window!

Later on his new neighbor came over banging on the door demanding we went up there and "got that shit off that fucking window!" I was pretty shocked, and then to top it off a passer by stopped and added "Sick Fucks!" so my friend went and cleaned it off to my dissapointment...

Anyway, the point is, I realised how much a simple shape can totally piss lots of people off...see I would understand if it was like a WWII veteran, but these were just guys in like their 20's!! There seems to be no reason why it has anything to do with them...

[MrsMo]

They understand the symbolism behind the swastika as it is accepted in this century. The symbolism has everything to do with them. They were voicing their objection to the hate message implied in a swastika. Good for them, and shame on you for putting it there in the first place.

That said, I think you and your friend were way out of line destroying the flat like that too.

[=BB=]

Most folks (in the Western world at least) agree that Hitler's use of the swastika has tainted the symbol beyond rehabilitation.

(In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495)

On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)

Because of the Nazis' flag, the swastika soon became a symbol of hate, anti-Semitism, violence, death, and murder.)

As regards our friend, Rikku's self-confessed role in vandalizing his friend's apartment . . . well it was the kind of thing a lot of young guys do without weighing the pros and cons. I once put swastikas on a carton of gov't cheques, when I worked briefly for the treasury department - it was an extremely boring summer job, and I usually carried a thermos of vodka and orange juice in my lunch box. The department supervisor was a little dictator and that was my vague reason for making the ugly graffiti.

It must be the rare youth who hasn't done anything foolish and regrettable.
And for sure, I would hate to see anyone as entertaining and bright as Rikku getting a tattoo with such heavy negative vibes as the tainted swastika.

My 2 cents worth cheers!

[SyntaxHeir]

Anyone remember that scene from Die Hard 3[?] where Wilis had to walk around LA with a sign that read "I hate N*****s"?

I think getting a Swastika tattoo would be very similar to wearing that sign for the rest of your life. [Both seconds of it.]

[Kitz E Kat]

Not a turn on for the girls, i would have thought.
All in, not your best idea Rikku :-)

[Rikku]

You have no idea how much of an arse the landlord was, theres more to the story than I described, but the point is it was justified :p But you know it wasn't my idea, the way your talking saying I trashed my friends flat...he was trashing it as he had fallen out with the landlord, I just joined in! And we didn't really trash it, just took what belonged to my freind and filled the top of the toilet with soap powder...it was my friend with the extinguisher, but he is just a crazy dude!

Oh and as for the tattoo idea yeah it was a bad idea, but what the hell, it was just a crazy idea I had one day! But sometimes I really just wish people would lighten up, it's just a simple shape!! That's what pisses me off so damn much! Yeah the Nazi's used it, yeah they were supposedly bad, whatever but the fact is, not just the Nazi's used it, and to be fair from the outside of the window the swastika was the wrong way round for it to be Nazi, and it wasn't on a 45 degree angle! So really it wasn't anything like a Nazi flag at all!! Mind, the guy that complained was a bit of an un-educated shit on the face of the planet...