Gary McKinnon... Free trip to the US?

[SpoofedEx]

Ok, for some people who don't know the story, I'll explain. Gary McKinnon is a "hacker". He's from the UK. He hacked the NASA and other governmental agencies by finding servers with blank passwords. However, he got caught, and now the US wants the UK to extradit (or whatever it's called) him to the US. But he has never in his life been there.
He committed the (obvious) crimes in the UK. He hacked servers in the US. Obviously the sentences in the USA are a lot higher: he may get a life sentence over there, I believe.
So what do you guys think? Should he be trialled in the UK or USA?

I find it rediculous of the US, tbh. He has never been there, but of course the US thinks they own the world, once again. If I kill an American over here in the Netherlands, I'd be trialled here as well, right?

[Kitz E Kat]

If I kill an American over here in the Netherlands, I'd be trialled here as well, right?
But if you killed someone in the US and jumped ship to the Netherlands you would be extradited to the US.
Just think of it this way, let's say you had a really really long arm, like a huge one, that could stretch all the way to the US, and you strangled someone in the US, while you where based in the Netherlands the crime was commited in the US.
Many fraud cases are like this also, from the Netherlands you could set up an operation in the US and defraud people in the US, while you where in the Netherlands the fraud was commited in the US.
Their have been for many years agreements for extradition for such cases, this is not unusual in any way.

Worse than that, their are agreements in place within the EU that allow the local police to pick you up, hand you over to the feds, let the feds question you for as long as they want , dump you back on the street and the whole thing is done in secrecy. The whole event will be denied, that was signed into law here in Ireland a few months back.
It is of course to help fight the "war on terror", and we all want to help fight the "war on terror" right !

As for Mr McKinnion, I do feel sorry for the guy, he seems like a harmless person, but he got lazy, and now he is paying the price. He will be hung out to dry , locked up and the key will be thrown away.

The US dont like people messing around with their military computers, and will make you pay if you do. Really the idiot hacked from his house, now how smart was that ???
Read Daremo's tut "if you can't do the time dont do the crime" ......

One the one hand I do feel sorry for the guy, he really ain't no threat and his "crime" is no more than cyber vandalism, with no real damage done.
However he "hacked" into the same system from his home computer for a couple of weeks, he asked for it , he got it !

[matt138]

i think if the crime was done in the UK it should be UK law which sorts it even though the actualy "damage" is in another country.

[Kitz E Kat]

i think if the crime was done in the UK it should be UK law which sorts it even though the actualy "damage" is in another country.
Yeah dude, but your missing the point, the crime was done in the US, from the UK. The "damage" was not done in the UK, it was done in the US.

Throw a stone in the UK and it breaks a window in the US, where did you break the law ? It's not illegal to throw stones in the UK, it is however illegal to break a window in the US.

Or another way. If you threw a stone from your garden into your neighbours garden and it broke a window do you think it would be OK to claim "well I was on my own property when I threw the stone, so I am not liable" ?
Not really.
Your "garden" is your juristiction, your neighbours garden is their "juristiction". But you tresspassed that, its fair game for your neighbour to drag you into their garden and say " hey look at the damage you done, your goin to pay for this". Just cos you launched the stone from your garden does not mean your not liable for it's final resting place.

This ain't something new, this is not rocket science any idiot would know that this would be the outcome for such an event.
If you hack a computer in the US from the comfort of your living room in Peckam, then the US will seek your extradition to face trial there. It's the way it was, it's the way it is, and it's the way it always will be.
You may not like it, but them are the facts.

Anyone that thinks that they can break into another computer in another country and thinks that they are safe cos it's in another country is either stupid, or thick. Take your pick.

[matt138]

hmmmm i think maybe the US courts should get together decide how long they wonna put him away for but keep him in the UK as thats the place he did the crime from. :)

[Kitz E Kat]

hmmmm i think maybe the US courts should get together decide how long they wonna put him away for but keep him in the UK as thats the place he did the crime from. :)
Well if he is really lucky, he may be allowed to serve the latter part of his sentence in the UK.
Foreign nationals tried and convicted in a country can apply to have their sentence served in their home country. Normally that only happens some years into their sentence, and if an agreement exists between the two countries for this.
Really the fool should have looked into all this before he went on his hacking spree from his home computer, and not after!
Stupid people do stupid things, it's not good enough to learn how to hack a computer, you need to know the basic's of the law and how it works, you need to understand how it can be used to your advantage, and how it will cause your downfall so you can avoid it.
And we are talking very basic law here, thats been in existance for many, many years now.

[matt138]

what actualy is the sentences for hacking in the UK now anyway?

[Apathy]

what actualy is the sentences for hacking in the UK now anyway?

Cheat Sheet: The Computer Misuse Act Updates (http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39121838,00.htm)

I read the indictment against Gary McKinnon a while ago. I downloaded it from http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/usmck1102vaind.pdf . It's quite interesting, it details all of his alleged actions and lists all of the IP addresses he accessed (or is accused of accessing). The IPs are blacked out to protect the insecure systems with no passwords from other people who may want to have a look. I'm not sure why I tried this, but I realised that you can highlight the black boxes over the IP addresses using the text select tool in Acrobat Reader. A simple copy and paste later and you have the IP in clear text.

[Kitz E Kat]

Cheat Sheet: The Computer Misuse Act Updates (http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39121838,00.htm)

I read the indictment against Gary McKinnon a while ago. I downloaded it from http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/usmck1102vaind.pdf . It's quite interesting, it details all of his alleged actions and lists all of the IP addresses he accessed (or is accused of accessing). The IPs are blacked out to protect the insecure systems with no passwords from other people who may want to have a look. I'm not sure why I tried this, but I realised that you can highlight the black boxes over the IP addresses using the text select tool in Acrobat Reader. A simple copy and paste later and you have the IP in clear text.


Meanwhile, you skillfully managed to avoid the question!

PS: hope your sleep deprevation programme is running well :-)

[matt138]

Cheat Sheet: The Computer Misuse Act Updates (http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39121838,00.htm)

I read the indictment against Gary McKinnon a while ago. I downloaded it from http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/usmck1102vaind.pdf . It's quite interesting, it details all of his alleged actions and lists all of the IP addresses he accessed (or is accused of accessing). The IPs are blacked out to protect the insecure systems with no passwords from other people who may want to have a look. I'm not sure why I tried this, but I realised that you can highlight the black boxes over the IP addresses using the text select tool in Acrobat Reader. A simple copy and paste later and you have the IP in clear text.

that pretty god damn cool:)

[SpoofedEx]

Stupid people do stupid things,

Smart people outsmart each other
Then themselves, then themselves.

(Guess the song, again ;-) )

Hmmm you were kinda right with the long-arm analogy. But still the difference is: your arm would've been in the US. And I do agree with Daremo's "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" motto, but maybe he could do the time, just not in the US.
It's a tough question, I have to admit that.
Although I think computer crimes are a bit overdone in the US anyway. I mean... If I'm right, you can get equal or even higher sentences for hacking than for murder. Kinda makes me want to calculate the number of dollars a human life is worth for the US government. Not much, I think.

In some cases, hackers may do millions of dollars of damage to a company. In that case, IMHO, they should be trialled the same as stealing the same ammount of money. Nothing more, nothing less. Can you get a life-sentence for that as well in the US? (That is, not robbing since that may harm people in psychiatrical ways).
In other cases, secret information is read. Again, you can punish them accordingly, as though they walked in the office and stole secret document and made copies of them.
And last but not least, the cases where no harm is done. Sometimes, the hacker even helps the admin. In this case, it's insane that the hacker is even punished. Sure, the company may lose money by revealing the hacks, since people will trust the security less. Well, isn't that their own fault?

Let's see, what did Gary do? Any damage? I don't think so. It's all governmental, so the knowledge of the hacking won't even lose them customers, right?
So only the second thing: he read secret information. He walked into the nasa office and made copies of their secret documents. Can you get a life sentence for THAT?
Seriously, kind of overdone, isn't it?

Or did Gary really see the information he told us he saw? I'm kinda sceptical on that. I don't even remember what it is exactly, but I believe alien civilisations and anti-matter fuel were among them.

[Apathy]

Meanwhile, you skillfully managed to avoid the question!

PS: hope your sleep deprevation programme is running well :-)

Avoided? I didn't answer it at all. :D

Just fine and dandy thankyou. Sleep deprivation does funny things to you. I regularly cannot remember bits of the commute to work. This morning I woke up after passing a lorry and two cars on the motorway and couldn't remember physically passing them. I find I'm being more careful at the moment as I know I'm not quite with it.

On to the question and back to topic (that'll be a first round here:p)

I don't think McKinnon will win. I think he'll get a free trip Stateside. I also think he's being scapegoated, i.e. he's the only one that the investigators could identify and he's carrying the can.

I'd agree with Kitz in that the crime was commited in the States. With the use of remote access tools it's as if he was sitting in front the system in question manipulating it directly and he should answer to a US court. Besides, he's a grown up and should answer for his own actions.

[Kitz E Kat]

Besides, he's a grown up and should answer for his own actions.

What an interesting concept! It'll never take off :-)

[Apathy]

What an interesting concept! It'll never take off :-)

Any more for the skylark?

[Apathy]

Looks like he's getting his free trip after all,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4715612.stm

[MrsMo]

I find myself appalled tht the US military networks were as insecure as it sounds like in the article. I knew many of their computers had been switched to windows -microsoft was crowing about it to the media when they made the sale- but I had hoped our government was smart enough not to switch their networks as well. That shows was a silly optomist I am!

[Kitz E Kat]

That shows was a silly optomist I am!
Please don't change, we need at least one in this world :-)

[matt138]

Im with kitz :)

[Kitz E Kat]

Im with kitz :)
I'm with Matt :-)

[matt138]

I'm with Matt :-)

hahaha :D (y)

[Kitz E Kat]

hahaha :D (y)

Hee hee hee :-)

[MrsMo]

I swore I wasn't going to get sucked into the whole "I'm with" thing - but I found myself sitting here snickering right along with the pair of you.

[Kitz E Kat]

I swore I wasn't going to get sucked into the whole "I'm with" thing - but I found myself sitting here snickering right along with the pair of you.

Very sorry Mrs Mo, I promise to refrain from creating child like posts , more or less ........

[matt138]

nothing wrong with being childish:p

makes things more fun. (y)

[FrontDesk]

So, how come the military goes with a windows system. What do I know, but wouldn't it be harder for outsiders and more secure for the insiders with something like Unix or Linux or something that isn't so familiar to everyone? I'm not a programmer, I can't break into anything ( hmm...I sound so USELESS.. smell good and Look GREAT ... heheh, now I feel better) but why don't they make it harder?

[MrsMo]

The military used to have their very own o/s - written by programmers in the military, strictly for military use - with all programs created by programmers in the military for any and all applications. This meant that someone joining the service needed to be trained in how to use their programs. Some bright soul noticed that people entering the military these days are already trained in using windows and windows applications, therefore almost no training or learning curve for those using computer applications. So far this was a good idea, but then someone must have thought along the lines of "if a little is good, a lot must be better" and decided to go with ms for everything - including servers. Idiots.

[FrontDesk]

I completely missed this when I reviewed earlier. Wow.. how did you figure out to do that? What a neat thing to know. Take it easy Daremo, I promise not to go poking around where I'm not supposed to be! hehehe
There mere thought of someone breaking down my door and taking away my BRAND NEW PC is enough of a deterent, let alone the thought of a cold dank PRISON CELL.


Cheat Sheet: The Computer Misuse Act Updates (http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39121838,00.htm)

I read the indictment against Gary McKinnon a while ago. I downloaded it from http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/usmck1102vaind.pdf . It's quite interesting, it details all of his alleged actions and lists all of the IP addresses he accessed (or is accused of accessing). The IPs are blacked out to protect the insecure systems with no passwords from other people who may want to have a look. I'm not sure why I tried this, but I realised that you can highlight the black boxes over the IP addresses using the text select tool in Acrobat Reader. A simple copy and paste later and you have the IP in clear text.

[Apathy]

I completely missed this when I reviewed earlier. Wow.. how did you figure out to do that? What a neat thing to know.

Being bored is a curse. I thought what's the point of putting in the blanking, why not just not enter them at all, or are the IPs still underneath and the blanking is just for printed copies. Hmm, I wonder if they've locked the highlight text tool? Oh they haven't, I wonder what I get if I cut and paste... Oh look - IP addresses.


Take it easy Daremo, I promise not to go poking around where I'm not supposed to be! hehehe
There mere thought of someone breaking down my door and taking away my BRAND NEW PC is enough of a deterent, let alone the thought of a cold dank PRISON CELL.


If you can't do the crime.........

[Apathy]

The saga continues

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/31/lords_mckinnon_appeal/